Either your a fool for joining consulting at entry level or you can't find anything better.Pros and Cons for joining consulting at entry levelPros:- looks good on CVCons:- you are a glorified administrator (your basically doing administrative tasks for more senior ppl)- you have little control over the projects your assigned to - you are forced to work brutal hours doing junk work- you are left with exit options that you may not possibly want since its hard to actually manage a career and get the experience you actually want- relatively crappy pay for amount of work you doMy suggestion to ppl is to forget joining consulting at the entry level based on pros and cons. Too many cons just for something on your CV.

your a fool?? nice grammar there

He/she is right!Incidentally, it's not a lot better as you progress up the ladder either. It's just a long long journey to stressville with a first class ticket on the stress express.

It's true, there are moments when you question why you are still here. But there ARE good projects, good moments, and interesting, entertaining co-workers. And what are the alternatives - Banking?! The hum-drum monotony of a 9-6 in industry for the next 40 years?? The money is pretty good, the work can be interesting, can be boring, but is ultimately varied. And you can control your career path, it just takes a little effort and a few well-placed conversations. Where else can you spend 2-4 years after graduation, then leave with the range of options consulting offers? There's a reason hundreds of thousands graduates apply for consulting spots. I appreciate the need to moan, but keep a little perspective...

So where do you suggest applying to instead ?

If you ask me any entry level job will have you doing the adminy type jobs until you can prove yourself. Its once you break through that that things really take off.At Accenture I spent about 6 months doing the dull stuff and then was given more responsibility and have really enjoyed my work since.If you ask me, its a bit misleading to suggest its only as an entry-level consultant that you should expect to do the donkey work!

There's an element of truth in that, but consulting work as a graduate is particularly menial. Whilst law and banking are also a bit grim at an early stage they tend to compensate better.In decent industry graduate schemes you will be considered more of a valuable investment and thrown in at the deep end rather than a beast of fee-earning burden as in consulting.I'm not advocating joining at an experienced level though. It is often hard to adjust to the culture and it can feel as if you have taken a step down and are constantly being patronised.

is law as competitive as consulting and banking? it certainly pays better than consulting!

A lot of entry level consulting roles are fairly boring, but so are the entry level roles in other professional service firms and in industry. In particular, very few graduate programmes in industry offer the investment in training and development promised.I would still choose consulting over and above other entry-level career options on the basis that the administrative work you do as a consultant is held to a higher standard than when you work in industry. You may be doing basic work, but at least you learn to do the basics well as a consultant.

You forgot to mention the pay.How many graduate/entry level scheme (bar IB and Law) would offer you the opportunity to earn:Above £32K with 0 years experienceAbove £42K with 2 years experienceAbove £50K with 4 years experience etc?You would probably have up to 6-8 experience and be a top performer to earn £50K in other industries.So how can it be bad to start your career at a consulting firm based on the financial compensation?

You really think those are decent salaries? Let's forget IB, as the basic salaries are higher in each case and any bonus on top just blows the comparison out of the water. In the case of law, starting salaries are again higher and shoot up once qualified.You've also glossed over the fact that salaries stall around the £50-60k mark for many and the pyramid means that opportunities to move to the next level are always going to be limited to some extent. You then find yourself trying to find an alternative job in industry, and yes, those paying over £50-60k are limited - because you're not qualified for them.In fact, plenty of graduate jobs pay comparable starting salaries, and few necessitate a life of semi-abstinence, forgetting about a social life other than at the weekend, spending hours in ghastly and inconvenient locations, getting up before the milkman every Monday, and the endless anality of lining up little boxes in PowerPoint.At a junior level in most consulting firms you are just an expensive temp. A white collar labourer.The salaries are only attractive compared to the alternative for those with no profession.Consulting - first choice only for those who didn't think hard enough about a proper job when they were in 6th Form.

DCF, you make some valid points..clearly you have not been infected with the pervasive and virulent strain of ACN-itis. Just a few follow ups on what you said:1. Consulting, in the main, is all about admin work, especially in the junior ranks and even in the senior ranks it is about managing the juniors doing admin work.2. The exit options are not as great as one would think. Given the money you are likely to be on and demand from industry..would will not be qualified to undertake such a role. I mean do you honestly think for one moment that people who work at board or executive level at blue chip companies have a background in change management, project management, IT architecture, business process mapping in visio..get real people.3. Ask any consultant (espeially the idiots at ACN) what are the key drivers, issues and risks that the client they are working for faces in the market place in which they operate..they won't have a clue.Consulting is a charlatan profession, practiced by spooty, lanky middle-classed twits who have delusions of granduer.ZB

"plenty of graduate jobs pay comparable starting salaries" - Not really true"The highest earners are still graduates going into investment banking who can earn as much as £35,000 when they start work. Next are management consultants and lawyers who can earn upwards of £28,500, followed by oil companies where the median salary offered is around £25,300." TIMES ONLINE (admittedly 2005)MI5 Grad scheme: £23.5khttp://www.prospects.ac.uk/cms/ShowPage/Home_page/Graduate_jobs/p!edcaefX?mode=showVac&CASA_object_id=SUBONAT-27102008-VACY-23599Sainsbury's grad scheme: £23khttp://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/job41673203.htmlM&S grad scheme: £21k http://www.marksandspencergraduates.com/thecompany/workingwithus/grad_careers/benefits.html Proctor & Gamble - £27khttp://www.graduate-jobs.com/gj/employer_bank/Procter_and_Gamble/Axa - £24khttp://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/job41969199.htmlBAE systems - £22-24khttp://www.get.hobsons.co.uk/profile/1921/bae-systems

And lets not forget the real starting salary for consultants (outside the big four) is more like 37k<. Just look at Tony&apos;s report

I think given the above it&apos;s fair to say consulting is actually not bad as a fresh graduate in terms of salary but it&apos;s after that it becomes a bit of a crap career choice. It&apos;s not even a proper profession really but it&apos;s a nice place to hang out between uni and getting a proper jo b. God help me if i ever start caring about this cr*p.

Please can the above salaries be broken down into an hourly rate and then resubmitted and compared to consultancy? Can they then be broken down by how many powerpoints per day each grad scheme requires you to do?

And lets not forget the real starting salary for consultants (outside the big four) is more like 37k<. Just look at Tony&apos;s report

And lets not forget the real starting salary for consultants (outside the big four) is more like 37k<. Just look at Tony&apos;s report

DCF,I will love if you can list the graduate schemes excluding those of IB and Law that pay as much as that of Consulting at entry level.And in regards to the travel and work hours, what did you expect? To get paid £32K (the avg salary of someone with 5 years or so experience in most other professions) when you know nothing and sit on your bum all day?If one works in MBB, it is up or out policy but with 6 years experience one can be earning about £100K (avg salary of senior, non-board executives in top companies). If one works in the likes of ACN, PWC, CapG, EY BAS and likes, the stall point is more like £70-80 (senior consultant to Manager). That pay ain&apos;t bad compared to other professions where you will have to have more than 15 years experience to earn that. And if a consultant has a brain in his head, he would have shaped his experience in consulting before hitting the stall point to move over to industry. Most people that earn £70-80K in industry are normally &apos;Head Of&apos; with about 18 years or more experience, a Manager in the consultancy listed above with 12 years experience can easily move to a head of role.I have seen consultants with 8 years experience move to Senior Manager roles in industry (normally filled by those with 12 years or more experience).I have even seen consultants with 3 years experience move to Manager roles in industry (normally filled by those with 8 years or more experience).

You know, im gonna have to agree with the author of this thread on some parts. Its true that it is very administrative, its hard to control your career path at entry level, the work is long, you don&apos;t have much say in your projects and pay relatively sucks.But, despite all that I still think ppl should join consulting at the entry level. Ppl need to look at the big picture and think long term instead of short term. First few years your just learning the basics, the nitty gritty admin details, but as you move up you get more input into projects, you build up a reputation and can better manage your career path and your exit options become alot better.So in short, I think that consulting is good for entry levels, but only if you intend to stick it out and reap the benefits in the later years (i.e. when you hit like senior consultant and up). Its tough cause of the politics, long hours, junk work you get... but in the end its all worth it (except if your working for one of those big it firms like acn or ibm... all their work is junk regardless of how many years you put in).

Word to the wise for all you naive young &apos;uns:Don&apos;t think that all you have to do is &apos;get in&apos; then &apos;stick it out&apos; and you&apos;ll be alright just so long as you can take the rough until the megabucks flow in. Why? 1) There ain&apos;t no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 2) &apos;Sticking it out&apos; is all well and good until you get made redundant (sorry, I mean &apos;counselled out&apos;) after 2 years of hard slog and get nothing in return.Go for short-term reward, kids! Anything else is just fluff and promises!

My personal take on the answer my friends is to work in consulting and get an accountancy qualification at the same time, even if it means studying off your own back in the short term. Relative to the bean counters and IB&apos;ers you&apos;ll have much broader experience (ultimately ticking and bashing all day and an admin monkey in a bank respectively) and there will be fewer people after five years who would have seen so much (assuming project variety/duration etc...)Grads will then have the leverage of experience and academics to challenge for interviews for what I imagine would be a number of roles in any industry they would have worked as a consultant for a decent length of time (6-9 months perhaps). (and before anyone mentions it..I appreciate working as a consultant you won&apos;t have the time to study and yes I do work 18 hours a day but the big 4 implementers (CG, ACN, EY, PA etc) all have projects for decent lengths of time to squeeze some number crunching in in the evenings

How do you view the CIMA? I&apos;m thinking I could bash that out in my spare time. I don&apos;t think I could handle ACA!

" Grads will then have the leverage of experience and academics to challenge for interviews for what I imagine would be a number of roles in any industry they would have worked as a consultant for a decent length of time (6-9 months perhaps). "Jon - at best this is an optimistic statement. With 9 months experience recruiters would view you as a glorified admin. Even if you have 3 years experience, you will still need to have focused industry experience relevant to industry you are thinking of joining. As for the topic - I would have to agree, consulting is a good stopgap between graduating and a "proper" job.

Sorry to disappoint all those desperate to reassure themselves that they&apos;ve made it by getting into consulting but here goes:- TfL: £25,000 + free travel for you and your partner + final salary pension (less cash but a bigger package... and that&apos;s in the public sector)- HMRC: £26,000 (when training) + final salary , rising to £48,000 on qualification (hence overtaking most consultants within two years)- Network Rail: £27,400 + golden hello + discounted travel + bonus + good pension..and moving on from the slack jobs to ones thay require you to do a little bit of work:- Arup: £27,000 + golden hello- Nestle: ditto- BAE: £27,500 + golden hello (check your sources!)- Shell: £30,250 + great benefitsAnd this is where we start to get into the proper jobs, before even talking about actual professions or the City. If we&apos;re going to start talking about jobs where you have to put your life on hold, work your nuts off and travel all over the place (making a fairer comparison with consulting than the mor relaxed options above), then when I graduated (some years ago, since when graduate salaries have increased hugely) Schlumberger was paying some of its graduate E&P engineers in the high 40s. Swire&apos;s management trainee scheme is paying in the mid 30s and they&apos;ll chuck in free accommodation too.

er.....all of those pretty much are less than consulting. Acn for example, 31+6 in first year and 33+4 in 2nd plus pension and holiday payout.

The ones I&apos;ve started with are, in cash terms, but the overall package is about equal and they are a lot less work. They are also largely free from the problems highlighted by the original poster. Returning to the cash, there&apos;s about two hundred quid a month in it after tax. Do you think this is adequate compensation for forgoing 3-4 nights a week of your social and secks life and working as a glorified admin monkey?So that&apos;s the value angle covered. Let&apos;s move on to strict cash terms.As I say, we&apos;re not even considering professions or the City. But the proper jobs mentioned - from Shell onwards, and including plenty of others in e.g. oil and pharmaceuticals - pay as much or more... and involve being treated as an adult.Face facts, comsulting is not so wonderful and you can stop patting yourself on the bag for landing that job.

Ok, well not everyone does that. I start at 9 and finish about 5.30-6.30 in central london and dont travel, so for me it&apos;s good and i aint an admin monkey.DCF i think you worked at Accenture and were relegated to SAP delivery projects in Brussels because of your lack of social skills. You were then counselled out because you couldn&apos;t even handle that and are now bitter about it so tell the world what an awful job consulting is.

DCF,Eh, have you considered that if you are spending 3-4 nights away from "social and secks life" during the working week, you then don&apos;t have to worry about transportation (especially in crazy london) and food cost as this is all paid for by the client? Basically, you don&apos;t have to spend your own money Monday-Thursday except for the odd £5 lunch cost and no 100 quid a month London underground cost.Factor this into the financials and considering the top consultancies pay £35,000 + or - £3,000, surely you can&apos;t compare those scheme you listed to it?Also, what exciting stuff does one do at entry levels in industry that makes consulting work admin? Is it the 18hrs spreadsheet manipulation in IB?

Sorry to disappoint, but I&apos;ve never been anywhere near Accenture. I&apos;m a specialist (not IT) at a large and fairly well regarded consultancy. Occasionally I have the misfortune to get staffed on peripheral "consulting" projects which are essentially just heavy and slightly complicated admin projects. In my previous life in industry I didn&apos;t trouble myself with such matters. That is what admin staff are for, or if needs be and you can justify chucking some cash at the task, consultants.I also appreciate the cost savings of being away, but I&apos;m not entirely convinced it&apos;s adequate compensation; as a graduate it&apos;s fun to be able to go out and see your friends during the week, and once you progress beyond say senior consultant you don&apos;t really notice the savings on food and a few Tube fares.Whilst I can&apos;t generalise too much, having worked at graduate level in industry and then entered consulting at consultant level, I felt that I did much more menial administrative work as a consultant. Fortunately I have now largely left that behind, but that is why on balance I&apos;m for the motion "Only fools join consulting at entry level". It&apos;s not so much that I have a huge downer on the whole sector, but that I think people talk it up a bit beyond what it is (as most experience it).

I agree, joining consulting at entry level isn&apos;t at all what it cracks up to be.I have worked for a while at entry level and it is really boring, long admin work.I have since then moved onto a blue chip company in one of their graduate leadership programs and it is MUCH better. Compensation is better, the hours are better, you get more responsibility and it seems like the company has an invested interest in your career growth... not like consulting where it seems like they are trying to suck you out dry by working you to death like a slave.

td,who do you work for if you don&apos;t mind me asking?

It&apos;s a supermarket chain witht the smae name as an iceland.

Once more, I think that many of you are talking about very poor consultancies firms... There, u really do admin job, u get little exposure and so on.. And yes, the pay is very low!!But you should all realize that consulting is NOT working for EY, CG and the others!!The problem is that everyone on this forum call herself a consultant, while the truth is that they are some SAP implementation guy and stuffs like that. Being a REAL counsultant is good, pays well, it is very interesting and you get a lot of exit options!! The problem though is that only 5-6 firms are consultancies.So stop calling yourself consultant and complain about poor salaries etc etc..

Go on then anon, I&apos;ll bite. Who are the 5-6 "real" consultancies?This should be hilarious.

The mantra in my place is "get an analyst to do it...". "it" covers everything.. organising hotels, printing, coffees etc, etc.. every now and again you&apos;ll be allowed to push some shapes around in powerpoint. Read it and weep.......

The "mantra" in my place is "get a secretary to do it".. She does everything: hotels, flight, printing, coffees... What is my place? Bain.. No way that in Bain an AC has to book an hotel or stuffs like that. On the contrary, an AC spends most of her day producing slides that are presented to the clients..If you work for a firm that cannot afford a secretary, then I you should not expect to anything special..What are the 5-6 firms worth it? MBB, Roland Berger, Booz Allen, Oliver Wyman and few others..

Yeah but there one is actually worse off financially in terms of a per hour wage as i do 40 hours for my 37k at Acn whereas they do about 60+ for their extra 10 or 20% and work in a pressure cooker environment.

Nice insight. He&apos;s right - at the end of the day, it&apos;s the hourly rate that counts. Never sacrifice your hourly rate. If you don&apos;t value your time, nobody else will.

Anon...I work in a small strategy consultancy. I have a couple of years blue chip experience and have been here for a little over a year now.The vast majority of our clients are multinationals.We work right up to board level, at the very least VP / president level.Our strategy work includes advice on (amongst many other things) market entry, sizing and analysis. They pay us to work with them to conduct this type of work and then come up with strategies to implement it.I think you missed us off your 5-6 companies list.I am also going to be a little presumptuous here and say that I think you may have also missed some other consultancies off your list.p.s. we also have a secretary, so should definitely be on your list by that measure alone.

"What is my place? Bain.. No way that in Bain an AC has to book an hotel or stuffs like that. On the contrary, an AC spends most of her day producing slides that are presented to the clients.. "There she blows! I knew you wouldn&apos;t let me down.Yeah, I wish I did "proper" consulting like producing powerpoint presentations for clients. I feel so inadequate in my job, you know, talking to clients, fixing their problems, creating new business for them, saving them money. I&apos;ve been in consulting 10 years from university, the number of reports I&apos;ve written could be counted on one hand. Now jog on with your view as to what "real" consultancy is, God forbid someone actually lets you out of your darkened "war room" for more than 6 hours a day, you might really hurt somebody.

"by fools"You seem like a really nice person.

5-6, really?,So you work right up to board level, at the very least VP / president level doing strategy work that includes advice on (amongst many other things) market entry, sizing and analysis and help your clients come up with strategies to implement it. Surely that does not make you a consulltant, at least according to anon from Bain?To be a consultant, you have to do this in MBB and work 80% a week, have no life after work, get paid maximum 20% more that the so-called "other (non-)consultants" and be prepared to be fired every year because a full-stop was missing from some of your 100 slide unimplementable slide pack in the vicious up-or-out policy.Now that is the real and ONLY consultancy.

Big Consultant,Darn it you&apos;re right. I should give in now. Unless I do that exact same work for MBB or one of a select few other firms, I obviously can&apos;t be a consultant.I see this now, and apologise profusely.How could I have been so blind.

How wrong you are "thank you".. Yes, I work for at least 12hours a day, sometimes the weekend, although not that much. It is true that I spend a lot of time producing slides, but I do talk with clients (everyone does, even ACs straight from uni), I do present material in front of the client, I do interview clients...Keep going on calling yourself a consultant, and good luck with your next SAP implementation!!

anon, If you are working all your living hours in a "real" consultancy, I hope you get sometime to get to know your spouse so you don&apos;t end up with a partner that claims to be from a rich dynasty, takes your money during divorce and kidnaps your child which then leads to an international search.But at least if that happens, you would have made partner as a "real" consultant.

So then, top consultant "anon" - tell me, what is it like earning the lowest hourly rate of any professional?

Actually I think you&apos;ll find that would be law.

This might as well turn into a &apos;my d*** is bigger than yours&apos; debate. Kids, stop throwing your toys out of the pram, I know it&apos;s Friday but seriously, chill out.Having read the article, and having joined a firm in September, I have to agree that some elements of the original author&apos;s article is true. However, some of it isn&apos;t - and that comes down to the project you&apos;re on. Some of them are absolute dogsh*te, some of them aren&apos;t. If you get put on a bad one, well, that&apos;s life, I sympathise, but it isn&apos;t necessarily always like that.

"It is true that I spend a lot of time producing slides, but I do talk with clients (everyone does, even ACs straight from uni), I do present material in front of the client, I do interview clients... "Wow, like, awesome. And stuff.I&apos;ve created new businesses, fixed broken manufacturing plants, held senior interim management positions (I&apos;m not an interim manager per se, but they wouldn&apos;t let a PP monkey near real responsibility), negotiated billion dollar deals, all sorts of stuff. Never been near an SAP project in my life. Yet as I&apos;ve never worked for a firm on your list I&apos;m not a real consultant. Apparently, your definition of a "real" consultant is just basic social skills to be able to ask the client a question. Good luck mate, you&apos;ll be counselled out soon, no jobs in the market for people whose only skill is a good grasp of Microsoft Office I&apos;m afraid but chin up, in 10 years&apos; time you&apos;ll be able to tell your children about the good old days in the broom cupboard working for a "brand". My advice. If you&apos;re a graduate at a consulting firm then make the most of it. Don&apos;t settle for back office stuff, have an opinion, lead where you can and climb the ladder on merit, not kissing the boss&apos; backside. Being a great performer at a "non brand" will get you far in life, the MBBB elitists on here will last 2 years then 80% will drift in to the background never to be heard from again.

Dear DCF,it actually feels great. Probably I can earn the same hourly rate as a bus driver, mcdonald&apos;s employee or the likes.. The only thing is that they would not allow me to work for 70 hours a week, but most likely 35-40. Looking at the hourly rate is not that smart, because at the end of the day you live on your total wage, not the hourly one.Finally, on a hourly basis, I get paid a bit less than top IB-ers, more than bankers in second-tier firms, par with most lawyers, sensibly more than many other so-called consultants.Overall, I am happy and satisfied with my annual wage, benefits and bonuses

And thereby the reason we all despair.

To add my two cents and bring this thread back to topic...I&apos;m a recent grad and have been working as an analyst at a small strategy consultancy for 18 months. I work harder and longer hours than most of my friends and my pay sucks (I actually worked out our admin girl is paid about 10% more an hour) but I think the initial experience far outweighs any short term financial benefits.I think MCs (potentially) offer excellent transferable skills and exit opportunities. I have active input into strategy development, speak to clients on a daily basis, have presented to senior directors and a CFO and have managed a couple of projects. I very much doubt I would get that level of experience in industry. I&apos;m sure there are better jobs out there which offer much more money for less hours, but I&apos;m getting unprecedented experience and responsibility which will stand me in good stead in the future, particularly as my ultimate goal is to own my own company at some stage

Hard to believe but Aldi seems to have one of the best grad starting packages:Aldi Area Manager Graduate Training Programme: A £40K starting salary that rises in stages to £57,750 after three years, plus a fully expensed Audi A4. There’s also a pension scheme, private healthcare, life assurance, five weeks holiday, international secondment opportunities plus prospects for directorship within five years.

I think there is a question mark on that Aldi scheme claims.I know someone that went to an assessment centre for it about 5 years ago (the salary advertised was the same then) and who came back telling me that there was some twist to that salary fact.If I recall correctly, he said the selected candidates actually start on about £27K for some reason I can&apos;t recall. Then after doing this and that that is very challenging or close to impossible before getting the £40K. I think he said you get the Audi though. Can&apos;t recall the full details.

A friend of mine did that grad scheme. You do get 40k and an audi, but you also have to work silly hours including every weekend to become a store manager. After 3 years or so you may reach the heady heights of regional manager, but most people drop out.All of that to work at aldi? No thanks

So what other firms or careers would people recommend at graduate level outwith consulting rather, than just saying consulting sucks (which it does; i&apos;m an analyst at Acn)?I&apos;m genuinely interested in what other firms/careers (outwith investment banking and law) offer the same if not more money and career progression as consulting.

Try to join MBB, then go for some decent graduate scheme in industry and then go for other smaller consultancies!!

There are various things that pay as well. Obviously they are not all opportunities open to all.Outside investment banking, there are various other financial sector jobs:- fund management- private banking- IFA-type jobs and those with a sales elementIf you make your choices earlier, there are various medical options:- GP- registrar, going on to consultant- dentistThen there are various options in oil, pharmaceuticals, some of the more lucrative areas of engineering, etc etc.I know contemporaries doing very well (that is to say, probably better than they would have done in consulting) in:- IT (albeit for a bank)- HR- HMRC- Nestle- As a quantity surveyor- In commercial propertyObviously all of these (with the possible exceptions of HMRC and property) have involved a degree of performance and promotion ahead of the pack but the opppotunities do exist.The interesting thing is that these are not cut-throat environments where nothing is ever good enough and you have to work with quite a few thrusting sh1ts.